Charis & Carrie
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Carrie: [00:00:00] I didn't wanna be just like, white noise humming through life just kinda so-so. Like, no, sign [00:00:05] me up for the pain. I'll take it because it means that there's serious joy on the other side of it.
[00:00:10]
Charis: [00:00:15] Welcome back to the Harness Your Health podcast. I am here with a special guest [00:00:20] today, Carrie Holland. And Carrie, thank you so much for being here.
Carrie: No, thank [00:00:25] you so much for having me.
I appreciate the opportunity to talk with you.
Charis: Yeah, super fun. So [00:00:30] we are going to dive into your background and what, why you're here, and what we're [00:00:35] gonna talk about. But first, why don't you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?
Carrie: Sure. [00:00:40] So Started out as a family physician by training and practiced full spectrum family [00:00:45] medicine for a little over a decade.
So I did all the things. I delivered [00:00:50] babies. I took care of those babies. I took care of patients in the hospital. I trained residents and medical [00:00:55] students. Kinda did it all only to realize that medicine really just was not for [00:01:00] me. There were definitely parts of it that I enjoyed and I loved, but I thought that was my finish [00:01:05] line, and it wasn't.
And as you can imagine, when you study and work and train and [00:01:10] sacrifice so much to get something you thought you wanted only to realize it's not, it was a [00:01:15] little unsettling. But it led me to really dig deep and find some [00:01:20] passions. And so now I did a lot of training and a lot of certifications to figure that out.
But I [00:01:25] started out with personal training, and I enjoyed that, but knew that wasn't it. Then I added a health coach [00:01:30] certification and that also wasn't it, and then came across life coaching and [00:01:35] found that really was where it brought everything together. It may also have been that there were some pretty [00:01:40] significant things going on in my personal life at that time.
And so I came across life coaching and it really [00:01:45] helped me transform my mindset and my perspective and how I engage with [00:01:50] life. And once I did that and saw a noticeable change, I realized oh, maybe I can do this for other [00:01:55] people. And then the ball rolled from there. So now I [00:02:00] practice coaching full-time.
I have my own coaching practice, and I work with ... Basically, I work mostly with [00:02:05] women like me, who took care of everything and everybody at the expense of taking care of [00:02:10] themselves, and eventually burned out, and so we help them fix that. And so I work with [00:02:15] them largely on habits, things like eating, moving, and thinking.
Those are my three main tenets, because they all [00:02:20] came together that way. And I help them reinsert themselves back into their lives. [00:02:25] So that's the mouthful of who I am and what I do.
Charis: I [00:02:30] specifically, I know I've told you this before, so we actually have a mutual friend.
That's how I found out [00:02:35] or got introduced to you. And this person was like, "Oh, you definitely need to [00:02:40] meet Carrie," 'cause she knows me and she knows you. And so when I first started listening to [00:02:45] your podcast, I was like, "Oh my gosh, this just resonates with me so much," just all the [00:02:50] things that you said.
Now, I love what I do, and I'm not burned out at my career at this [00:02:55] point, but I have changed careers multiple times in my life, and so I appreciate that. [00:03:00] I also think that as women, our lives can be very different from the [00:03:05] time that we're in our mid-20s to the time we're in our 30s, 40s, beyond, right? Yeah.
And [00:03:10] so that's not something that we have to feel ashamed about or sad [00:03:15] about. Like you said, it's a long road to become a doctor, but at the same time, if it's [00:03:20] not suiting you, why would you spend the next 20, 30 years doing that?
Carrie: Yeah, [00:03:25] absolutely, and there was no way I was going to. I mean, When I thought ahead to what my life was going to be like, and then [00:03:30] adding kids to the mix, I w- a- and never seeing them I realized that this was not the [00:03:35] trajectory that I wanted to take.
And I knew that there would be some sacrifices around that, and there would be some [00:03:40] big changes and big conversations and upsetting and disappointing some people. But I decided that it [00:03:45] was worth disappointing those people because it meant I didn't have to keep disappointing myself. And that [00:03:50] was a huge...
I mean, even that, I didn't, I didn't get that just on my own. I had to figure that out through [00:03:55] coaching and therapy, I'll be honest. But once I did that and gave myself permission to actually lead by [00:04:00] my own intentions, things got so much better. Yeah ... and that's honestly what I want for everybody to [00:04:05] make the decisions and do it intentionally, whether it's related to your career or your exercise or your food, [00:04:10] whatever.
It just feels- Yeah ... a lot better to be living in charge of instead of at the [00:04:15] effect of. And I- Totally ... i've learned the difference now. It took a minute- Yeah ... but I think I'm getting there,
Charis: I [00:04:20] think we go through time and, you have your path, and like you said, there was parts of medicine that you [00:04:25] enjoyed.
And so you go to work, and you have a great day, and then you go to work, and you have not such a [00:04:30] great day. We've all been- Yeah ... told and learned that is normal, and it is normal, but that [00:04:35] doesn't mean that you can't evaluate it from that zoomed out point of view, right? Like-
Carrie: Yeah ...
Charis: [00:04:40] overall, this is not right for me at this point- Yeah
in my life. Yeah. So now what am I gonna do? [00:04:45]
Carrie: Yeah. And I knew that there was a way that I could help people in a different way. I was in a traditional [00:04:50] medical practice, a hospital-owned practice- ... where you have your 15 and your 30s, and that's [00:04:55] about it. And this was a while ago, and before all of the advent of DPCs and [00:05:00] physicians going out very much on their own, and there's been such a shift in medicine.
However, at the time that I was practicing, there [00:05:05] was no way that I was gonna continue in that model. It just wasn't for me. And so now I get to [00:05:10] help people in a way that feels more- real and authentic to who I am and what I do. I get [00:05:15] to work with high-achieving, really smart people all day long who really wanna work hard, [00:05:20] but turn it on themselves in a positive way, instead of working it against themselves.
So [00:05:25] I've realized that is what I enjoy doing. And so I get to help people who go out and help other people, [00:05:30] 'cause a lot of the people I work with are in helping professions, like physicians or [00:05:35] nurses or other forms of healthcare, teachers, academics, entrepreneurs. So anyway, so I get to help [00:05:40] those people so that they can go out and be who they wanna be for the other people that need them.
And I had to [00:05:45] really work on accepting that was going to be the impact that I made, rather than direct patient [00:05:50] care. But again, if you ask my husband, I'm a thousand times happier and feel so much more [00:05:55] fulfilled doing what I do, and this is where I needed to be, and it only took me a minute to [00:06:00] realize it, but
Charis: That's okay.
I would argue that this is just as important as anything [00:06:05] else, and we don't really see that in the medical model, I think you and I have talked about this [00:06:10] prior. We, neither one of us are medical model bashers at all. We [00:06:15] believe very strongly in medicine, in the medical model.
It's definitely has its time [00:06:20] and place. And then there's other parts of people's health, like their mental health, their [00:06:25] emotional health, obviously, and that is an important part. And, I [00:06:30] hear people a lot say "Well, I went to my doctor because I was having anxiety or [00:06:35] this or that, and then they offer me a drug, or they just ask me a couple questions at the [00:06:40] end or something like that."
And I would just argue that their doctor isn't really, [00:06:45] that's not their role is to like, dive into these deep things with [00:06:50] you. Yeah. Yeah. They have to go through the physiology first and make sure is there something [00:06:55] physiological that's going on? Okay, no. Maybe you should see a therapist.
Maybe you should see a [00:07:00] mental health professional or a coach. And so maybe we should address that. What is the difference [00:07:05] between a therapist and a coach. And I know there are a lot of different kinds of mental health [00:07:10] professionals. Obviously, psychiatrists are medical doctors. Mental health professionals [00:07:15] are sometimes people who are trained in more of a counseling type of [00:07:20] profession.
But can you- Yeah ... just delineate the two things, the coaching and the therapy?
Carrie: Yeah. Absolutely, [00:07:25] and it's a really great question. I get asked it all the time. Even when I'm, like, [00:07:30] interviewing or having consultation with potential clients I always try to make it very clear that I [00:07:35] wanna stay in my lane because I am a coach and I am a physician, but I am not a therapist.
And so I make [00:07:40] no bones about making that very clear. And I think, again, if you, if you go looking, even in the literature, [00:07:45] if you go looking in like, social media circles, you're gonna see a lot of opinions and, frankly, a lot of argument [00:07:50] about the differences between this. Just like anything in science, right?
Nobody agrees, and that's fine. ... So this [00:07:55] is my... This is my take-home. But one of the biggest things for me the difference, as far as the difference [00:08:00] between therapy and coaching really is pathology and meaning [00:08:05] Does this interfere with the person's ability to get through their life, right?
The [00:08:10] women that I work with, they are high achieving, they are functioning. They're out doing things. They're [00:08:15] taking care of work, they're taking care of families, kid, all the things. However, something is off, right? [00:08:20] So maybe they're not taking care of themselves.
Maybe they have habits like not eating well or not [00:08:25] exercising that they wanna put in place, and that is where I come in. And so we do a lot of habit [00:08:30] coaching where we work on how do you, you know, plan? What do you do? How do you make this happen? How do you troubleshoot? [00:08:35] So contrast that to somebody who has either got severe anxiety or [00:08:40] depression, who can't get themselves out of bed, who cannot function, who is not taking care [00:08:45] of their daily activities.
For me, that's a huge line that [00:08:50] at that point I would say, "Okay, yeah, I think that we- you would benefit more from a therapist [00:08:55] than from talking to me," because that is beyond what I am capable of helping them with. Yes, [00:09:00] I can, I have the pieces, being a physician, of recognizing that.
However, again, I don't [00:09:05] operate as a physician when I'm talking with my coaching clients, and so I try to remain [00:09:10] very conscientious of, like where this is going. I will admit there's certainly overlap [00:09:15] because even the type of coaching that I do has its roots drawn in cognitive behavioral [00:09:20] therapy where we make the connect- we make the direct connection between our thoughts, feelings, [00:09:25] and results, and that goes straight back to cognitive behavioral therapy.
However, again, [00:09:30] I s- I say it all the time, I'm not a therapist. I don't wanna be your therapist. That is not my role here. [00:09:35] I'm a coach. And one of the things... I also I could talk about this forever, so I'll try to cut myself off here, [00:09:40] but one of the other things that often comes up is if we're not able to work past our [00:09:45] past, right?
Like, when I'm in coaching and we're coaching, I'm coaching a client, the past often comes up, right? [00:09:50] And so one of the things that I often look for is this client moving forward from the past? Is this client [00:09:55] able to move forward from the past? Because sometimes there are veritably things that get in the [00:10:00] way and prevent us from moving forward, and again, that is something that I am not...
that's not in [00:10:05] my wheelhouse. I'm not trained to do that, and so at that point I would also say, "Okay, maybe a therapist [00:10:10] can help you here." And then the other big thing is that coaching is unregulated. So anybody can [00:10:15] put their hat on and say, "I'm a coach," and they can advertise that way, which is good or bad [00:10:20] depending on how you look at it, right?
Therapists have to go through very strict training, regulations, [00:10:25] CME, maintenance of certificate, all the things, right? They're licensed and so that's where, [00:10:30] again, it can get a little fuzzy. I stand behind the training that I have done and I stand behind the different [00:10:35] hats that I wear that help make me the coach that I am.
However, anybody can [00:10:40] call themselves a coach. That's why I would recommend anybody who looks for a coach to do their due diligence and [00:10:45] really vet the person that they're considering working with, because this is a really important trusting [00:10:50] relationship that you don't wanna just hand to anybody.
So I mean, I can go on. I mean, This could be an entire podcast. So I [00:10:55] will stop myself there, but those are- ... those are the biggest, those are like the biggest things that come to mind when you ask that question, which is a [00:11:00] great one. Yeah.
Charis: I think a bunch of things you said just jumped out at me, but also I just [00:11:05] should feel like I should mention, when you're working with a coach or working with a therapist, I [00:11:10] actually have never had a coach, I don't think, just outside of people like coaching me or [00:11:15] like sports.
But I have been in therapy multiple times, and so When you [00:11:20] are work, gonna work with someone or talking to them about that process, I think you really [00:11:25] need to tune into, does this feel right to me, right? Because you can also have a [00:11:30] very well-qualified credentialed therapist that is not a good fit for you.
Yeah. And so [00:11:35] that's what that discovery process is like.
Carrie: Yeah, absolutely. I'm free with it [00:11:40] because it has taken me a m- a, a while to get to where I am, and I have worked with many, [00:11:45] both coaches and therapists, and I've had some really not great coaches and I've had some really not great therapists.
[00:11:50] So I mean- ... it really is about fit and finding somebody that you feel you can trust, and that you can [00:11:55] be honest with, and that you can bring your messiest self to- Yeah ... and trust that they're gonna help [00:12:00] you work through it. And again, the goal isn't for the coach or the therapist to solve your problems, but rather to ask [00:12:05] you really great questions to help you solve your own, and to help you- Yeah
move [00:12:10] forward.
Charis: I'm just so glad you brought that up, because I think a lot of people might wonder [00:12:15] even what is coaching, like- Yeah ... what is, what do you do in a coaching [00:12:20] session? And- Yeah ... I know you've mentioned that you are helping a lot of women, high-achieving women.
[00:12:25] I think I see this a lot, people know that I teach at Nutrition Therapy Institute, and one of the [00:12:30] classes I teach is the business class which has a coaching element to it. And [00:12:35] so what I see in that class specifically, and what I see in my students, [00:12:40] is that we often attract the people or we want to help the people that we [00:12:45] once were- Yeah
or that we kind of overcame and worked through that process. It's very typical, especially with [00:12:50] women. And so I think a lot of women, that's a really great part of [00:12:55] it, because you're talking to someone that knows how you feel. Yeah. Yeah. It's kinda like when I was [00:13:00] pregnant I have zero problem with a male OBGYN, but I did not want one [00:13:05] delivering my baby or taking care of me.
I just, that was just something that I was, part of [00:13:10] me of what I wanted, right? Mm-hmm. And nothing wrong with that. And I would say if someone is looking [00:13:15] for a coach, looking for a therapist, then, that discovery part where you meet with that person and chat with [00:13:20] them a little bit in the beginning is important.
And qualifying them, and then, [00:13:25] like you said, just starting that process and looking for the trust factor and, and- Yeah ... the [00:13:30] messy self. There's no reason to hold back.
Carrie: Yeah. Absolutely. And one of the biggest things that I [00:13:35] feel, at least for me anyway in my experience coaching and my experience now being a coach, [00:13:40] is that I am very goal-oriented, and the clients that I work with, [00:13:45] one of the first things they ask is what do you wanna do, right?
What is your goal? And oftentimes they come and they're just like, [00:13:50] "I feel like garbage and I wanna feel better." And, like- Yeah ... that's fine. That's a great place to start. Yeah. And [00:13:55] then in the coaching relationship, we clarify what exactly that means. So does that mean for them [00:14:00] making a little bit of space for themself to exercise?
Does it mean- Figuring out what [00:14:05] healthy eating actually looks like for them, and then executing it. Whatever it is whatever the goal is, I [00:14:10] wanna know what that is because my job as the coach is to help them move forward to get there. [00:14:15] And it's not that therapy isn't goal-oriented.
Of course it is. But mine, I think the way that I [00:14:20] approach my coaching is a little bit more granular, and we get into the weeds, but we get into the [00:14:25] weeds with the plan, but we also get into the mindset piece that trips them up when they try to do it. So [00:14:30] again- Yeah ... i'm going on and on here, but I think there-
there are lots of parallels, there are lots of divergences, but I think that [00:14:35] they both... again, having gone through both, I think that they can work very well together, but it's also important- ... to [00:14:40] know where it's time to go to one over the other,
Charis: sure. Yeah. Let's, [00:14:45] dive into a little bit more about how you work.
I think one of the things I love about you, [00:14:50] and this, when I was... I had heard about you from this friend of ours, and then I was [00:14:55] like, "Okay, I'm gonna start listening to her podcast," and it just resonated for me so much just [00:15:00] personally, but also just all the different people that I work with. And so I just [00:15:05] binge-listened to your, basically your podcast from the beginning, which is many years.
Thank you ... a lot of walks [00:15:10] and hikes and things listening to that. And so I love how you [00:15:15] tackle these different things that are the focal point of your podcast, but it really [00:15:20] comes back to these same things, which you mentioned before, beliefs lead [00:15:25] to feelings, choices, actions, results, right?
So do you wanna just break that down [00:15:30] a little bit? Because I think the first time I heard this was probably like, years ago, [00:15:35] and I was like, "Oh, that actually does make sense," and you just have such a great way of [00:15:40] breaking things down. So can you just share that with us?
Carrie: Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for listening to the [00:15:45] podcast.
I appreciate it. Of
Charis: course.
Carrie: But I think one of the biggest connections that I had to make for myself [00:15:50] was the ultimate connection between our thoughts and our results, because we're [00:15:55] humans, and we like to be right, and we mostly like to [00:16:00] especially like to be right about ourselves. And so that- ... for me was a huge shift [00:16:05] in that when we think something and we think something about ourselves, by nature, we're [00:16:10] gonna go out and prove it true.
So as an example, if you believe, "I'm a hot mess and I can [00:16:15] never get my life together," and if you have been telling yourself that for years- What's gonna [00:16:20] happen, right? So when it's time, like right now we're in back to school season, and so if it's back to [00:16:25] school season and you're believing that you're a hot mess and you can't get your life together, kids gotta go back to school, [00:16:30] somebody's gotta eat, we have to have meals on the table.
H- how is that gonna, how is that gonna pan out? First, how [00:16:35] is it gonna make you feel to think that way? It doesn't really feel awesome to think that you're a hot mess, right? No. And to truly [00:16:40] believe it, right? And then how is that gonna play out in what you do? Thinking you're a hot mess is [00:16:45] not gonna get you any better at getting dinner on the table or getting you organized, right?
And so then what is the [00:16:50] ultimate result of that? You prove yourself right, right? You don't plan meals, you're racing [00:16:55] everywhere, you're scrambling to get the kids out the door. You don't make time to exercise for yourself, right? You [00:17:00] prove yourself right. You prove you're a hot mess, right?
So that alone, right? Like that, okay, I just said that in [00:17:05] two minutes. It took me maybe like, four years to figure that out, right? But once [00:17:10] I did and was like, "Oh, so the way that I'm thinking directly impacts the experience that I have in the [00:17:15] world outside of me," once I actually realized that how I thought was going to really impact what [00:17:20] came into my life- Then my world broke open.
I was like, "Oh, so maybe I can change [00:17:25] that." The problem that I had was that I thought, oh, it's like a light switch. I could just [00:17:30] like, turn this like, negative thought. My thought was I'm broken. I came from a pretty... I shouldn't [00:17:35] even say pretty, a very dysfunctional family. Lots of just really ugly stuff in my [00:17:40] childhood home, and when I left at 18 for college and never came back, [00:17:45] it was with the belief that I was broken.
Okay? So I've held onto that belief for how long? It took [00:17:50] me a minute to get rid of that, and- Sure ... I just it took a long time [00:17:55] for me to able to be able to start replacing that thought. And when I learned about all of this mindset work and the connections [00:18:00] between our thoughts and our results, I was like, "Oh, I'm just gonna shut that one off.
I'm just gonna, I'm just not gonna think that [00:18:05] anymore." But that's obviously not how it works because things happen, and as long as you're a human interacting [00:18:10] with the world and other people and humans, those thoughts are gonna come back. And I was like, "Oh why [00:18:15] isn't this just like, going away?"
And so that's really where the coaching came in because [00:18:20] now I have lots of different tools that I use myself and then also teach my clients to [00:18:25] work through that because it's not that those negative thoughts ever go away. I would love to be able to promise you, [00:18:30] for example, whatever negative thought that it is that's blocking you from your next greatness, I would love to [00:18:35] tell you that that I can just shut a light off and that's gone.
It's not how the world works. It's not how it works. [00:18:40] And so we have to figure out, okay, it's not about getting rid of that thought, it's about managing what we do when that thought [00:18:45] comes up, right? So lots of things. What am I forgetting to remember here? Oh, I'm not broken. I'm [00:18:50] not 13 anymore.
What else? I do have authority. I do not have to do [00:18:55] X, Y, Z just because that's what I've always done. Remembering what a good daughter actually [00:19:00] is for me, not what the world says a good daughter is. All of those things, right? All of [00:19:05] those things, they don't magically shut the light switch off, but they help me [00:19:10] manage when those negative thoughts inevitably pop up because they do.
And what happens? [00:19:15] Again, what happens? If I continue to practice believing something other than I am broken and maybe I [00:19:20] am a strong woman, right? What happens? I prove myself right? It's confirmation bias. [00:19:25] So- ... again, I said this all in matter of however many minutes, but this is the work.
I would love to [00:19:30] say that it's easy and it's fast like I just explained it. It's not, right? Because stuff [00:19:35] happens. But again, that's what we get to work through. But at the foundation of it, again, it always comes back to the [00:19:40] same thing. It always comes back to our thoughts and feelings, and we, sometimes while we feel like [00:19:45] we don't have control over them, at times it feels like we're totally out of control of them.
We actually aren't. We [00:19:50] can take back control. Again, I said it before, so that you're not living at the effect of, you're living in charge of, and it [00:19:55] feels so much better, so much more empowering. That's how I prefer it.
Charis: Yeah. That's [00:20:00] such a great way to think about it. I had a podcast episode where I interviewed Mari Wolner, and [00:20:05] we talked a lot about permission, and I think you mentioned it in the very beginning.
And I think that [00:20:10] word is just such a magical word, because we can use that word [00:20:15] for ourselves for anything. I give myself permission to drink water [00:20:20] when I wake up I get... instead of coffee. Or I give myself permission to plan healthy [00:20:25] meals, or whatever the case may be. And I think for the... I run into a [00:20:30] lot of women, and I probably had some stints of this in my life too, [00:20:35] where I didn't even know what I was doing.
That might sound really [00:20:40] ridiculous, but like, obviously you know if you're not exercising, you know if you're not eating healthy. [00:20:45] If you would've asked me for the awareness piece of like, my thoughts, I would tell you [00:20:50] there is no negative thoughts, and I often hear this from people.
So I would love to hear your thoughts on [00:20:55] this. People will say I don't think I have like, a negative thing rolling through my head. Do you see this [00:21:00] in people?
Carrie: I see a lot of, "I don't know what I'm thinking," or, "I don't know what I'm feeling." Yeah [00:21:05] Or, "I don't know how to feel."
That one comes up often. And I think part of it just [00:21:10] comes from us being busy, high-achieving women who [00:21:15] do a lot of things, and sometimes go on autopilot. And I think we get really good at taking care of [00:21:20] everything and everybody, and w- how do we do that, though? How do you do that? How do you run on [00:21:25] empty?
You turn into a machine. You become numb, right? And so that [00:21:30] alone is a skill that we have to unwind, because so many of the women that I work with, they know how to go, and [00:21:35] if you ask them to do something, ooh, they'll get you an A+, they'll get it done for you in no time. Ask them what they're [00:21:40] feeling, it's like- What?
Like deer in headlights. How do I- Yeah ... I don't even know, right? And again, it's [00:21:45] not we've all... I have been there, right? It's not a fault because actually how wonderful [00:21:50] is it was a coping skill. It was how we got through. Think about whatever training you did or whatever [00:21:55] ladder you had to climb to get to where you are, it was probably done at least in [00:22:00] part by abandoning yourself.
And not in like the, not in a horrible, dramatic way, but just like, [00:22:05] "Yes, I'm tired," or, "I need to go to bed right now," or, "I really could eat something right now." We don't do that because, oh, this [00:22:10] person needs me, or my kid is crying, or I'm in a 10-hour surgery right now and I'm scrubbed in and I [00:22:15] can't walk out.
So we get really good at learning to ignore ourselves. And [00:22:20] in some instances that can be helpful because it gets us to where we are, right? Mm-hmm. But [00:22:25] those same skills that got us where we are, they don't always help when we're [00:22:30] in a different place in our lives, when we are in long-term relationships or married or have [00:22:35] kids or have all these other things that are parts of our lives that maybe weren't there before.
But [00:22:40] then you have this long, hardwired skill of ignoring yourself that got you where you are, got you some [00:22:45] success. So why in the world would you wanna undo it? That feels completely [00:22:50] unnerving and unsettling- ... and wrong, right? And so that, that- Yeah ... is the work right [00:22:55] there, unraveling that, 'cause that's hard.
Charis: Yeah. And I think also, I talk about this a [00:23:00] lot with stress resilience 'cause women are like I just have stress in my life. I can't... there's [00:23:05] nothing that c- you can do about it. It just is what it is." And so we talk a lot [00:23:10] about the resilience of like, your physiology, the way you look at it mentally, and [00:23:15] how that kind of trickles down to your emotions and the other things, and how you [00:23:20] manage that day to day.
And I will say that one of my pet peeves is that [00:23:25] term self-care. It's like- We, that just should be, like, a part [00:23:30] of us. It's not just the addition on the end, right? And so I see in [00:23:35] s- I'm just gonna use medicine as an example because I just think of this so much with my [00:23:40] own life, just what I've seen in the hospital, is that to take care of [00:23:45] people, especially in very serious circumstances, like a lot of us do, [00:23:50] you have to be able to, and I'm gonna use the word compartmentalize, but that's [00:23:55] probably not the right word.
You have to be able to be in that moment to do that. If you have to [00:24:00] go to the bathroom, like you said, if you feel like you need a break, you feel like you're tapping out, you [00:24:05] can't leave. Like you said, you can't leave the surgery. So how does someone go from [00:24:10] that and being really good in their job to do that and take care of that person, 'cause that is [00:24:15] the importance at that moment, to then shifting gears and transitioning [00:24:20] to being able to take care of their self?
And I don't mean like, oh, what's your [00:24:25] self-care gonna be? It's you're not doing it because it's on the calendar. You're doing it because [00:24:30] it's just part of you taking care of yourself, and I would argue that people who take care of [00:24:35] other people need more of that.
Yeah. They need more attention, [00:24:40] right?
Carrie: And often they don't... Yeah, no, I agree. And often what happens, I think, is that there is [00:24:45] very little, if any, buffer in between those two roles because who's not busy? So [00:24:50] we're busy, we're taking care of all the people at work and whatever, and then we come home [00:24:55] and we flip on our hat for our other full-time job and take care of all the humans at home who need us, [00:25:00] and pets.
Don't forget the pets. And so there's in between that, it's like maybe you have a commute, or if you [00:25:05] work from home, you're just going out the door and there's zero transition time. There's no [00:25:10] time. And not only that, there's the physical piece, right? Okay, I'm at work, I'm doing this, I'm typing [00:25:15] or I'm finishing charts or whatever, and then I'm gonna run out and make dinner or [00:25:20] schlep somebody to soccer or whatever.
But then there's also the mental load of it that we often forget [00:25:25] because it's, yes- ... there's the physical piece and all the running around that we do and the physical tasks that we do, [00:25:30] but the the work that we don't see, the behind the scenes. Okay, so-and-so's got an appointment on [00:25:35] Tuesday.
What about the carpool? Grammy's birthday is Friday. Who's getting the cake? And, like, all of the [00:25:40] mental load things that are just, they're internal and they're invisible to everybody else, but [00:25:45] that, that weighs on us so much. I would almost say more. I don't know, I shouldn't say more, but at least [00:25:50] as equally, as a much, as it does to all of the physical tasks that we do- and it all adds up. And [00:25:55] then on top of that, to your point about self-care, the self-care ends up becoming [00:26:00] one more thing on the to-do list, and it becomes one more thing for us to fail at because it's like, "Ah, I didn't do [00:26:05] my 10-minute meditation today," or, "I didn't get my blue dot on the Peloton because I didn't do whatever.
I [00:26:10] failed." And that's exactly the opposite of what self-care is supposed to be. And so to your [00:26:15] point, I will often, instead of even asking about self-care, I'll just be like, "What does relief look like to you?"
Charis: Oh, [00:26:20] that's a great question.
Carrie: Just straight up relief. Yeah. Like-
Charis: Yeah ...
Carrie: we're not gonna solve all the problems [00:26:25] here and get you a 30-minute exercise routine and like, protein on the table by 5:00 P, [00:26:30] but what looks like relief to you?
And maybe that's you sit in the driveway for five minutes [00:26:35] uninterrupted, or one of my colleagues I used to work with, she took a long way home on her [00:26:40] drive. There's a really short route that she could take, but she took a long way because she just needed- Yeah ... a minute to get [00:26:45] herself together.
Yeah. So relief, right? Because sometimes the whole idea of self-care [00:26:50] is so overwhelming and so much and so task-oriented that it's like, no. So how about [00:26:55] relief instead?
Charis: I love that. Yeah. So what would you say to the [00:27:00] person that says... And maybe this is a readiness question, because people who [00:27:05] seek services from a coach or, we're not talking about therapy, but a coach or [00:27:10] any sort of professional that's gonna help them with their health, so whether it be fitness, nutrition, [00:27:15] whatever, they o- if they're seeking those services, they are often have a little bit more [00:27:20] readiness than someone who's just fried, running the routine of their life or whatever.[00:27:25]
But a lot of times some of the questions that come up are, "I don't have time," "I [00:27:30] don't have energy for that," or sometimes it's money. But [00:27:35] what would you say to those questions? And maybe they're separate things, and that's okay, but I [00:27:40] think these are the things that I see and hear on repeat, especially the time thing.
Carrie: Are you [00:27:45] saying, what would you say to somebody who's like, "I don't know that I have the time to invest in coaching?" Or time to [00:27:50] invest in myself?
Charis: Yeah. I would say, anything, I think [00:27:55] people ... it's back to what we were talking about before with the task thing, you check it off, right?
So maybe [00:28:00] you hire someone in nutrition, like someone like myself, and they were trying [00:28:05] to maximize your diet, because I talk a lot about how your [00:28:10] nutrition fuels your biochemistry, that influences your physiology.
And not thinking about [00:28:15] calories, not thinking about anything else literally than just fueling your body with the [00:28:20] substrates it needs is nervous system regulation 101 in my opinion. And so, [00:28:25] you know, if it's someone like that 'cause they think that I'm gonna give them a prescription for what to eat or [00:28:30] whatever, and I'm like, "You need, we need to figure out how you can fuel your body," and [00:28:35] they say, "I don't have time for that."
Yeah. What would you say to that?
Carrie: That's, I mean, that's a real [00:28:40] challenge, and it's a very real one because I've had, you made me, when you were t- sharing that, you made me think [00:28:45] of a an email that I got from somebody who was a potential client, and she was like, " I don't have time to [00:28:50] think. I don't have time for this.
I, can you just tell me can you just write me a meal plan and write me a strength [00:28:55] training plan?" And I was like, "No, I, no." Yeah. Because that's not the answer. That's not the answer. Because [00:29:00] most often I'm making a generalization here, but most often these people have tried that already.
[00:29:05] They've had somebody give them a plan, or they f- found something online, or they saved a bunch of Instagram videos about meal [00:29:10] prep and whatever- ... and they haven't done it. So the problem is not, I'm gonna argue that the problem is [00:29:15] not the plan or needing a better one. It's how do we fit this into [00:29:20] your life?
That's it. Really if you wanna boil it down. And why isn't it [00:29:25] working? And it's not because, i- it's often because I am so busy, and because I can't say no to people, and I feel [00:29:30] tremendous guilt if I make room for myself, or I haven't given myself permission to put [00:29:35] myself first. It's all of those things.
I say it all the time. I say to every single person I consult with, [00:29:40] any good coach can write you a strength training plan and a nutrition plan. I don't do that. I [00:29:45] mean, Yes, I can do whatever. I can write a strength training plan for you, and I can help you with your [00:29:50] nutrition.
That's not it. Like, where I am going to help you is to figure out why this has never worked in the [00:29:55] past, and then we're gonna, we're gonna work on that hardcore. Like that. That's it. And I think people often [00:30:00] think I hired a coach," this, or I paid the money for this program." Like-
Check it's done. [00:30:05] No. No. Because it's only then that the real hard work starts, because, yeah, I can tell you all these [00:30:10] things, and I can offer you questions, and I can offer you recommendations, but I'm not standing on your shoulder when you're [00:30:15] standing in front of the refrigerator deciding, do I or don't I want this pan of brownies, right?
And [00:30:20] that's what I need to equip you with. That. What do you do when you get into that situation? Or what do you [00:30:25] do when you need to set a boundary and every fiber of your being is recoiling because your body is [00:30:30] shutting down 'cause you don't want to? Mm-hmm. But you know You want to, but you don't want to.
That. That stuff. [00:30:35] Yeah. There's no plan I can write that's gonna fix that. That's mindset that's talking, that's asking and [00:30:40] answering questions. That is far beyond a written plan, eat this many eggs. No. No. [00:30:45] We're not gonna do that.
Charis: Exactly. I know. I, when I finished my nutrition [00:30:50] training they teach you in the program you can teach people how to meal plan, blah, blah, blah.
But it's not like [00:30:55] that's all you can do. And I think people hold onto that because it's [00:31:00] something concrete. They're like, "Oh, I can-" Sure ... "make meal plans, and I can sell them for this amount of money or [00:31:05] whatever." And I think I was giving people, this was a long time ago, giving people [00:31:10] meal plans, and then people would be like do you have another meal plan?"
And I'm like, "No, and I [00:31:15] don't wanna give you another meal plan." And that was when I really realized I don't wanna give people meal plans. [00:31:20] I don't wanna give people prescriptions. I'm not a licensed provider that does that. And [00:31:25] that's not what I do. That is part of kind of our culture and our society [00:31:30] to be like, "Just tell me what to do and I'll follow it."
Yeah. Yeah. But like you said it [00:31:35] shouldn't feel scary to be like, "I'm gonna do the deeper work," because [00:31:40] that's what helps you for the rest of your life, right? So it's not just like, checking [00:31:45] boxes today. It's you as a different person having a different trajectory.
Carrie: And [00:31:50] I think the challenge is it does mean asking hard questions and getting really honest with [00:31:55] ourselves.
I think about where I am now, and I mean, I always joke that I wish that I learned a lot of these things [00:32:00] in college. But to be perfectly honest, I don't know that I would've been ready for it in college- ... because I don't think I [00:32:05] was at a point at which I could turn inward and be like, "All right, Carrie, what are you contributing to this?"
But that's [00:32:10] where the growth is, right? That's where the work is. Sure. And it's not about blaming yourself and getting down on [00:32:15] yourself and being like, "I stink as a human." No. But rather, this is what's [00:32:20] going on in my life. This is a pattern that I see.
How am I contributing to this? [00:32:25] What am I br-... Because it's just me, right? It's just me in my own head, so what is going [00:32:30] on here that I'm doing? And what an empowering question to take on, because [00:32:35] you're the only one who can fix it. You cannot fix my life for me. I would love it if you could, but you can't, nor [00:32:40] can I fix yours.
But that's a great thing, because it means I have all of the power and the agency that I [00:32:45] need right here. I just have to figure out how to use it to make some really great things happen for myself. Not [00:32:50] easy, no. But not everybody is at a point where they're ready to [00:32:55] do that work, and so it's much easier to be like, "Hey, can you write me a plan?"
Charis: Yeah. So much easier. And there's people who [00:33:00] do that, and that's fine. Yeah. That's their business model. That's not really what we're talking about, [00:33:05] because there's always a deeper layer of stress with [00:33:10] people, and the things that are underneath all of these actions- That's [00:33:15] right ... right? And behaviors.
Let's kind of shift gears a little bit and talk about where people can take [00:33:20] this information. If I was gonna ask you just like a blanket question for someone, [00:33:25] let's say we're talking about a high-functioning, type A woman, with a big job and a family [00:33:30] or lots of responsibilities, what would be the best way for her to set [00:33:35] up her success?
I always think of everything as like zoomed out. So when we're [00:33:40] thinking about the situation, if I had a new client come to me or a student come to me, [00:33:45] I wanna hear like what's going on, and I wanna think about this big picture.
If [00:33:50] this Is a potential client coming to you and she's like, "I feel like I'm fried. [00:33:55] I'm not taking care of myself," like how can I set myself up for success? Do you feel like [00:34:00] there's like a starting point that, not that this is like a blanket for everybody is the [00:34:05] same, but just something for people to think through and think about their own situation [00:34:10] to get them started thinking about how to help themselves?
Carrie: I hit on it [00:34:15] before, but I'm gonna expand on it a little, because one of the first questions that I will most often ask when I [00:34:20] get started is, one, what does relief look like to you? Because I think, [00:34:25] again, I try ... I also feel like self-care is like this blanket, fuzzy term that just [00:34:30] gets thrown all over the place, and so I've veered away from that and now am looking more at [00:34:35] relief.
And what does that look like to you? Because it's gonna be different for everybody. So maybe relief for one person is gonna look [00:34:40] like, "I have 30 minutes a day to exercise for myself." There you go. There's your starting point. [00:34:45] Or maybe it's, "I'm so tired of going through the drive-through for dinner.
I want an actual [00:34:50] meal that's cooked at home, but I also know that I only have 10 minutes to do it, so what do we do?" So it's always gonna [00:34:55] start with ... again, I said it before, even just about coaching. What's the goal? What do you want? [00:35:00] And sometimes it can be as specific as "I just need to eat dinner."
And then [00:35:05] if somebody tells me, "I just wanna feel better," then, then somebody gets more challenging, but then that's- ... that's when I get to ask them more [00:35:10] questions. Okay what things aren't working right now that are making you feel so icky? And so that, [00:35:15] that's what usually opens up the can of worms.
My work takes up this, that, and the other, and I never see my kids, and I never [00:35:20] have time to cook, and I never have time to exercise." So again, then we get to pick through all of the layers, like what [00:35:25] feels most important to you right now? So a little bit of, a little bit of [00:35:30] goal-setting- ... a little bit of prioritizing, and a little bit of projecting forward, [00:35:35] imagining what the ideal is.
Like those ... again I'm being very broad, but those would [00:35:40] be like three big things that I would wanna start with anybody that I work with. I have a whole questionnaire that I use when I get [00:35:45] started with somebody just to tell me "Hey, tell me about yourself," but then also what would make this [00:35:50] a success for you?
What would make coaching a success for you?" Yeah ... 'cause it's gonna be different for [00:35:55] everybody. So but if we can- That's right ... be like Stephen R. Covey and start with the end in mind, right? And then work our way [00:36:00] backwards, but that, that would be where I would begin. Again, that goal is gonna look different for everybody, [00:36:05] but if we get like a really big one, feel better, then we have to get really specific about like what does that [00:36:10] mean for that person?
Does that mean that you wake up feel rested, feeling rested in the mornings? Does that we- mean that you have actual [00:36:15] food in your refrigerator instead of like leftover takeout? What does that look like to you? And then [00:36:20] work from there.
Charis: And I would say, too if you're asking someone those questions and they're like, "Yes, I [00:36:25] wanna be rested.
Yes, I do wanna have food in my refrigerator. Yes, I do wanna have time to [00:36:30] exercise," you could say any of those things are a great place to start, right? Like- Yeah ... I [00:36:35] think we both agree that giving someone this list of to-dos of eight [00:36:40] things is likely not gonna stick. They're not gonna be able- Yeah
to do it, especially- Yeah ... someone who's [00:36:45] looking for this type of help, right? And so it's like, just start with one thing, [00:36:50] and then you- Yep ... get the momentum. This is such a human nature thing. You take action, you get [00:36:55] momentum, you get confidence because you're like, "Oh, I did do that. I do have food in my [00:37:00] fridge."
Yeah. "I have made some meals," right? And so it's reaffirming, and it's [00:37:05] just such a way that our brains are wired to-
Carrie: Yeah ...
Charis: motivate ourselves, right? [00:37:10]
Carrie: And the one thing that I would add to that is that often I run into this all the time where [00:37:15] maybe a client wants to exercise for five days a week, 45 minutes at a time.
And they are- ... currently... And I'll ask, "Oh, [00:37:20] okay, how much are you exercising now?" "Zero." I was like, "Okay." "So we're gonna go from zero days a week [00:37:25] to five days"- Yeah ... "45 minutes," and again, that's such a large leap. And while that may be [00:37:30] the ultimate end goal, we have to be realistic about "Okay, what are you actually doing now, [00:37:35] and what makes sense?"
And often I will get pushback 'cause I don't wanna just exercise for 10 [00:37:40] minutes twice a week." And I'm like, "But, okay." Take, go with me on this and see that you're currently [00:37:45] exercising zero. So if we go to two exercise sessions of 10 minutes a piece, that's 20 minutes more [00:37:50] than you are currently exercising.
And often it takes a lot of work [00:37:55] to see that as an improvement, because we don't wanna just go a little bit. We want the full on, [00:38:00] full deal zero to 180 big sweeping change, and that sounds [00:38:05] so awesome in theory, but often blows up in our face because we're not at a point where we can [00:38:10] sustain that yet.
So I would say one of the biggest things that I work on with my clients is accepting that it, there [00:38:15] is no small progress. It's just progress. You can take the qualifiers out of it, but I [00:38:20] get it. It's like, when somebody comes in and tells me "I don't wanna, I wanna lose 20 pounds." I'm like, "Okay, how are you gonna lose the first one?"
They're like, "I don't wanna [00:38:25] lose one pound, I wanna lose 20." I'm like, "I hear you. I hear you. However, how are we gonna get to that first [00:38:30] one? 'Cause that's what's gonna get you to number 20." Yeah. So it's very much, again, it's a mindset [00:38:35] shift of seeing that small progress as- ... progress, period.
And it [00:38:40] sounds so duh, yeah, I know, but again, I have spent hours and hours coaching on that [00:38:45] because it's a real roadblock. And I think part of that is just that what, we talked about is culture. It's you see [00:38:50] all of this stuff on social media or on apps or influencers or whomever that are like, "I did this [00:38:55] and magically transformed my life and it only took me two weeks."
And you're like, "Okay, I want that." Of [00:39:00] course we want that, but that's not real life. Yeah. That's not real.
So we have a hard time accepting anything [00:39:05] less than that picture perfect ideal. But when is life [00:39:10] ever picture perfect ideal?
Charis: Yeah. I
Carrie: think- And that's where we have to meet them where they're at,
Charis: yeah. And [00:39:15] that's the beauty... someone was saying the other day about like, AI and tech and how [00:39:20] wonderful it is, and it is wonderful in a lot of ways, right? There's no problem with [00:39:25] information anymore. We literally have more information than we need. But the [00:39:30] problem really is, especially with the invent of AI, is [00:39:35] connection, I think.
And so I would argue that having a coach or [00:39:40] someone that you're working with is that human connection of someone that you can [00:39:45] really share what's going on, who knows what you're working towards, and can help you [00:39:50] and support you to move towards that, right? Yeah. And so I think about this a lot [00:39:55] with different people I know in therapy and they're like, "I can't wait to tell my therapist about [00:40:00] this," right?
Yeah. 'Cause they've had a big success. And that is the same thing that you would have [00:40:05] with your coach. You cannot wait to message your coach and tell them, because they're the one that really knows [00:40:10] how challenging this might have been for you or how much work it took to get here or how deep you had to [00:40:15] dig.
Carrie: Yeah. I think there's something to be said for the element of human connection and just having somebody [00:40:20] who, like a real live human, who's on your side and who maybe has gone through it [00:40:25] before and can give you their own life experiences as examples, ask you [00:40:30] real solid questions and help guide you. Again, my answer...
my job isn't to give you, hand you [00:40:35] answers. ChatGPT can do that for you, no problem. But I think it's more meaningful and more powerful [00:40:40] when we work to find our own answers, and you can do that with help of course. You don't have to [00:40:45] struggle. But I think being able to go and try and make mistakes and keep [00:40:50] going until you find your answers, I think there's, I think there's a lot of lessons learned in that.
Charis: [00:40:55] Yeah, 100%. Is there anything about coaching that we didn't really talk about yet that you [00:41:00] feel like we should cover?
Carrie: No, I feel like we've hit a lot of... we've hit a lot- Yeah ... of the big points. I'm biased, but I [00:41:05] really do feel like it changed my life, and I feel very strongly about it, and I'm grateful for it, and I'm grateful to be [00:41:10] able to do it now.
But no, I feel like we've hit... And we've gone in lots of different directions about it, so thank you. [00:41:15] Awesome.
Charis: Yeah, I think, when I wanted to start this podcast, one of the things that I really wanted to [00:41:20] showcase was people who are trained in conventional healthcare and are now doing something [00:41:25] different.
And- and usually within still taking care of other humans. And [00:41:30] so you're just the perfect example of that, and I think that this episode will resonate [00:41:35] for so many people on so many levels. There's so many options out there in the world [00:41:40] right now, and we have to just remember that my mom, a, a lot of people know [00:41:45] recently passed away, and so I've been thinking a lot about all the different things that she's told me over the [00:41:50] years.
And one of the things she told us when we were young is, "No one else will take care of [00:41:55] you, and you are the only one that takes care of yourself." And I remember, not super young, like a [00:42:00] teenager or, and a young woman I just remember thinking at first "Wow, that's harsh, [00:42:05] right?"
But she was right, and she was right, and I think her point was just [00:42:10] that we are, can be the drivers of our life. And so everything that you shared with [00:42:15] us today should give people hope that is possible no matter what your circumstance is, right?
Carrie: [00:42:20] Yeah. Yeah. So- I think there is something to be said for finding your answers and working through hard [00:42:25] things and really showing yourself that you can handle hard things.
I think for so many years, for [00:42:30] decades, I thought pain would just break me apart, and that I wouldn't be able- ... to move through [00:42:35] pain, and so I avoided it like the plague. But I think that's what contributed to me being numb, and it [00:42:40] was only once I realized that, oh, I actually can handle pain. It's not fun.
I don't [00:42:45] choose it. I don't love it. But I can handle it and come out on the other side [00:42:50] okay. Honestly, that's when I realized more joy because that's the contrast, right? It's like, [00:42:55] how do you know joy? Because pain. You know the difference. You know the contrast. And it's in that contrast [00:43:00] that I think that's where the human experience is.
I didn't wanna be just white noise humming through [00:43:05] life just kinda so-so. Like, no, sign me up for the pain. I'll take it because it means that [00:43:10] there's serious joy on the other side of it.
Charis: Oh, I cannot think of a better place to [00:43:15] finish this conversation. Yeah. That is so eloquently said, and I just couldn't [00:43:20] agree more.
So thank you so much, Carrie, for being here. Do you wanna share your website [00:43:25] and your podcast? Sure. Sure. I would just say from my perspective if you wanna [00:43:30] dabble in this, th- the next step would be to listen to Carrie's podcast. She has [00:43:35] so many wonderful episodes, and you will find one, and I would say probably many [00:43:40] more-
that resonate for you. So just start listening to her, and take [00:43:45] the next step if you need some support in this area.
Carrie: Thank you so much for having me. I [00:43:50] appreciate it. Of course. So my podcast is called Strong Is A Mindset. It comes out once a [00:43:55] week. And you can also find me at my website. It's [00:44:00] www.Carriehollandmd.com.
But thank you so much for having me. It was a really great- Of course. I think we went all over the place, so it was a really great [00:44:05] conversation. I appreciate this.
Charis: Yeah. Great. Thanks so much, Carrie.
Carrie: Yeah. Thank you.
The [00:44:10] information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only [00:44:15] and should not be considered medical advice. I am not a medical doctor, and this [00:44:20] content is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any [00:44:25] disease. Please consult with a qualified healthcare professional before making any decisions [00:44:30] related to your health, especially if you have a medical condition or are taking medications[00:44:35]
