GMT20261012 172753 Recording gvo 1280x720 (00:00)
It's more examining your own predispositions, your biases,
Are you
listening to respond or are you listening to hear the story?
Welcome back to the Harness Your Health podcast. I am here with Deanna Nagel today, who is also a contributing author in the book The Integrated Bodies. Thank you for being here, Deanna. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. So if you don't know what I'm talking about, you should go back to the beginning. This is, I think, our fifth or sixth episode in of this series where I'm interviewing.
Contributing authors to this book called The Integrated Bodies, which really is the mindset of that everything about us is connected, our body, mind, and spirit and soul. And all of the different experts who have written chapters in this book have a different point of view to offer. So Deanna is gonna tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do. My name is Deanna Nagel, and I am a psychotherapist licensed.
In a couple of states, New Jersey, New York, although I live in Florida, it's a long story. and I've been practicing psychotherapy and coaching for thirty plus years. I'm not seeing clients at the moment. I but I do have clinical supervision consults and I do mentoring. and so that's where a lot of my energy is now. Teaching. I just don't see cli psychotherapy clients anymore.
so that's what I do. it's been an iteration over my career. Who I was as a therapist 30 years ago is not who I am now. which has largely brought me to this integrative bodies book. because over the years I've gotten very intrigued with the healing arts and the larger landscape of that.
And consequently I became, a coach and I dabble in aromatherapy and Reiki and integrative, integrative approach. and the more years have gone by, the more I've gotten into depth psychology, which is really in my mind, in terms of what I do, is helping the practitioner understand where they're at. Like
How are they showing up in the room? as opposed to the complete focus on the client, because I think how the practitioner shows up in the room really, really determines the client outcome. Absolutely. I mean, it's a relationship, Between two people or more than two people sometimes. so I know we talked about this a little bit before we started recording, but
And I told you a couple of stories, my own personal stories. working as a nurse in the hospital, I've had lots of interactions with different people. And obviously, as a patient myself, I just feel like this is something you don't really hear about very much. Yes, maybe doctors or other practitioners in whatever training they're getting.
Have some time dedicated towards their quote unquote bedside manner, if you will. But I feel like this is a little bit different than just bedside manner. It is. It's more examining your own predispositions, your biases, your notions, your thoughts, your, you know, I didn't make this phrase up, it's a very famous phrase. Are you
listening to respond or are you listening to hear the story? Because if you're in the room with a a client or a patient and and the next thing you're thinking is, okay, well she just said that. Now what how do I what is my response? And then and just all of that mumbo jumbo becomes part of the energetic frequency in the room. Absolutely. Well to be a hundred percent honest, you and I are talking right now.
And I'm thinking about that for myself. I'm like, okay, Charis just really listen to what she's saying and don't have your response fabricated in your head at the same time. But that is hard. How it is. It's a practice. It's right. So it's a practice. It's a habit. if you're talking to a practitioner or someone, what is the first step?
I think one of the hardest things for practitioners is to be okay with silence, with any silence. Like in order for you to listen without thinking about what you're gonna say next, there may have to be a few seconds of silence so you can collect your thoughts. It's not like it's you you have to run ahead of it all the time. And I think practitioners are just not used to that kind of pace. The pace they want is
She says I say. She says I say. She says I say. Okay, we're good. Yeah. That's so interesting. this popped into my head when I was working as a nurse. Many people know I was an oncology nurse. So taking care of cancer patients. Obviously, there's definitely times where there's not good news. And I remember I was precepting someone. So I had another nurse working with me. And we had found out.
That this our next patient was gonna be a patient that was told that they were coming into the infusion center for like supportive care, but they were told that there was nothing more that we could do. They weren't gonna get their chemo treatment, you know. And that was the news they had just heard from their doctor. And so she said to me, Well, what are you gonna say? And I just remember thinking, Well, I'm gonna ask her, I don't know this patient. I've never taken care of her before. I'm gonna tell her, you
introduce myself to her and just tell her, what I understand the plan is for today and is there anything she needs from us? And I used to base everything on my perception of how the person is doing. So if the person is sitting there kind of laughing or chatting with whoever's with them, that's a little bit different than if they're crying in the chair, right? Or like kind of closed off and not saying anything. Those are two very different things. And so I base
everything on the patient. And when I don't know where this even came from because I think I am the person that often wants to say something. My kids will say this about me. You always have to respond. You know, I have teenagers. so I it's something I've definitely been working on. And I just remember this patient so vividly. And she told me what happened.
And I think I was like either kneeling down or sitting down close to her. My hand was like right on the chair. And she grabbed my hand and we just sat there and didn't say anything because I didn't know what to say. That was part of it, was like, I didn't know what to say. And so after that experience, when people would say to me, and it wouldn't matter if it was in the hospital setting at work or someone I knew that was like, I just found out.
That this person has cancer, this person has whatever, and it's, you know, not a good thing. What do I say? And I would always tell them, you don't have to say anything. Right. Right. In fact, not saying something is saying something. I agree. It's still communication. communication continues, even though we're not verbally, you know, speaking out loud. We're
That presence, that's what it is. It's your presence in the room. Mm-hmm. So this also makes me think of teenagers. So I have two teenage boys and a lot of moms will say, I know my kid like, you know, likes me or wants to be around me because they'll just come into being the room I'm in. But they don't necessarily want to chat, you know. Right. They just want to feel the energy. They're just there with you, being around you.
I love this, just the silence that sometimes could feel really uncomfortable, but I'm guessing that you're gonna say, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that it gets a little bit easier if you practice this. Would you agree with that?
Well what actually what becomes easier is because it's a skill, yes, but deeper than the skill, it's it's the human factor, it's the human connection, it's the sentience between two human beings in the same room. And sometimes because of our jobs or the structure of our jobs or the expectations of our jobs as practitioners, you know, we have to cross
cross T's and dot I's and do the checklist and that's what we're taught to do. Mm-hmm. So it becomes, you know, if you go to a marriage couples or or marriage retreat, you'll hear everything I'm saying. Because it's talking about two people that are not in a hierarchical relationship, but they're just trying to communicate, right? Yeah. And so part of what I stress with practitioners is
Yes, the hierarchical structure is there by you know, there's there's no getting around that, right? But it doesn't mean you cannot be more collaborative in your conversations and your approach. I mean, sometimes it's just helpful if a practitioner will start out with, you know, what do you hope to get out of this today? Mm-hmm.
Before anything else happens. Wow. if you're willing to hear that answer, you may not be able to check all those boxes for them, but you've heard them and you can acknowledge it. Right. And to start a session that way as a patient would feel very exciting because people don't often start that way. Nope. You tell a story in your chapter in the book about that. And I think
I could definitely relate to it as my own patient, you know, experience and also just so much of what I've observed. And you just kind of cringe a little, Because you're like, this is not what this person in the chapter already has something that she's very stressed about, and that she's not really getting any relief of that. She's jumping ahead to the next session, hoping that it's gonna be better.
Right, right. this must just be what I have to do this first session and answer all these questions. And I don't even know if she's listening to me. Yeah. I don't know if she's in the room with me or if she's just like I mean she's sitting here, but is she hearing anything? I'm saying and I've I've supervised many clinicians who again may just may not have been taught when they were in graduate school some of these skills.
But sometimes it it was simply they were taught but they forgot because they had to work under the pressure of the internship or the practicum or the the hospital rules or the clinic rules or the whatever the rules, the rules, rules, rules, right? Mm-hmm. And so what I try to do is, yes, it's there. Let's just put it in brackets for a little bit, put it over here. Let's pretend there are no rules for a minute. Now, how would you handle that session? Hmm.
They could ask whatever they wanted or say whatever they wanted, right? Or they could rely on their own intuition instead of the form in front of them. and a lot of this has come from my own journey. I've I have my own health issues and I've spent many years in with doctors and nurses and practitioners who I felt weren't hearing me. Or if I if they heard me, they discounted what I just said. and even if what I say
Isn't true. that's not born in the research. Okay. There's a better way to tell me that than to just toss me off. So instead of, well, no, actually, there's nothing in the literature about that. Instead of that, something like, would you like to hear what I understand about that? Mm-hmm. I mean, sometimes it's just
I don't know, just being nice. The way you phrase a question, it's like asking for for permission. Right. Right. Because that does make it feel like more like a collaboration. Even though it is like a hierarchy, like you said, you can't get around that. You're seeking someone out, their expertise, you're paying them for that, right? Like that is part of it. But one
common thread we've talked about in a lot of these podcast episodes with the book collaborators is that patients or clients really have an ownership over their own health. And this is such a great example of that, is that you can go in prepared with an intention, but it can go off the rails depending on how the practitioner is.
if you if it was a patient or a client, how would you recommend that they go into a session and then also maybe deal with someone who isn't really seeming like they're listening?
So
First of all, as patients, we we need to be our own self-advocate. We need to assume nobody else is going to do it for us. Which means we have to have agency over who we are and how how we want to feel. and this is where I feel like AI can can be a true companion in the process, because if you're going to see a specialist about something you don't know a lot about
AI or Google is a perfect way to say what questions should I ask? What do I need to know about this? Not asking AI for the answers, but asking AI maybe what questions would be good. Okay. So then if you go to the practitioner and you express that you have some questions you'd like answered.
I can pretty much tell right away whether they're gonna be open to answering my questions in the first place, whether they don't wanna hear my questions at all. and so as a patient or client.
I can't say it enough. Just trust your gut. You know, it doesn't mean you you you're never seeing that practitioner again. It just means how can I say this? That practitioner may be suited for one particular piece of the puzzle. Mm-hmm. Okay, so I have a couple of doctors in my
treatment team, so to speak, and it's not a team, which is part of the problem. It's not integrated. and I know exactly what I can expect from from those practitioners. I don't go in with the expectation that they're going to want to hear anything. You know, I answer their questions, I get the information I need.
And that's not the person that's gonna give me for lack of a better way to say it, the bedside manner I'm looking for. but having agency even about that is important, I think. Sure. It's kind of the way you your mindset about it, And I feel like even in a situation that maybe isn't the the
perfect way that you would want it to go, you can learn something from your appointment, So maybe that's the question that people could ask themselves too, so that they don't feel like it's just a lost cause or it didn't go maybe the way they had hoped, is like, what did I learn from this? So yes. And that's called, in my language, being the curious observer. Right. So both as a practitioner and as a
Patient or client.
not having the immediate emotional charge behind any of it, right? Mm-hmm. So you go in being the curious observer. I'm just gonna be like watching the play from the balcony. And I'm gonna take it all in. You've got my mental recording going on. And then I'm gonna process it later. Mm-hmm. And take what I want and leave the rest. And give yourself time to do that, right?
Yes, and same for the doctor, the nurse, whoever's on the other side of that. Mm-hmm. because practitioners can also be emotionally charged without realizing it. Yeah. So they have preconceived notions about somebody based on a name or a s a previous note in the file or first appearance, or you know, we are not bias free because we're human.
Absolutely. And so part of what I teach is you have to be aware of your own biases. You have to be willing to look at that. if you're not doing your own work, especially as therapists, right? Yeah. if you're not willing to look at in depth psychology, it's called the shadow, then you're likely gonna miss a whole bunch and your own ego is gonna get in the way.
Yeah. You mentioned when we were before we started recording that when people don't listen, all kinds of different conclusions can get drawn if someone's not listening, You can miss diagnoses, you can miss possibilities, other connections. Like it can become kind of a dangerous thing to not be listening. And I think people think that listening is just so simple.
And it's very interesting to hear if you and I have a conversation and you just ask me, well, what did I just say? Like I might not be able to come up with it, Right. And mean, I can give you an example of a bias that's going on fairly fiercely in in all levels of care. And that is the AI bias. So with AI, you either like it or you don't.
Right now. There's a few of us are are cautiously optimistic about it. Of course there's some things we need to be concerned about. But if I'm a therapist who automatically has a bias against AI because AI is gonna take my job, then when the client comes to me to say, I looked this up on AI or AI said this, or well, I use AI, if you have an immediate bias, you're not gonna hear the whole story because
The question you should be asking is, wow, can you tell me about that? How is it helping you? Right. When you leave this session and you go home and use AI, what benefit do you get? Mm-hmm. Do you have any concerns? Is there anything I can answer? Did anything come up that that I might be able to clarify for you? It's a totally different. You're going to get two totally different responses depending on how you.
Present it or don't present it. It reminds me a little bit of you know that saying or whatever it is that's basically if I'm feeling comfortable and confident in myself, then I'm not defensive. And I don't know what they call this in like from your training and expert, you know, perspective. But it's if you bring something up to someone.
And whether they've heard it before and they think it's ridiculous or they've never heard it before, and they're like, no, that's not a thing. Or, you know, like you said earlier, that's not in the literature. That's kind of like a defensiveness, right? That people tend to have. And I think that sometimes practitioners struggle to balance all the differing things, That people are coming up with because the reality is that patients
have access to all the information. No. But they need a human person to connect with them and be their expert. So even though you, as you so wonderfully suggested, I look up my questions on AI ahead of time, I bring them into my doctor or any practitioner. And I kind of know the bait very basics about this. I'm
there because I need that person's perspective. Absolutely. What a wonderful experience if that person could be a complete human, listen, and ask me some questions too. Like you mentioned. I mean, to me, as a practitioner, it just seems like it could be so simple as a start. I mean, I imagine there's like a depth of this work for some people, but as a start,
what question could you ask this client today just simply one question it doesn't have to be like a whole new way of thinking if you've been a therapist for 20 years and you have a client next in the next hour in the afternoon what could you ask them that would make them feel that you are really trying to make this a collaborative
process. Right. And if you're not thinking in that way, because life is happening despite your efforts. And there's, you know, maybe family drama or whatever, or, you know, you've you've gotten behind or you're not feeling well or whatever. That happens to all of us. The difference is being intentional about knowing where you're at before you sit across from your client.
Yeah. that just that can make the difference. Absolutely. I mean, we see this in the hospital a lot, you know, someone has to deliver bad news. And ten minutes before that, they're joking around eating a muffin in the break room with someone, knowing that they have to deliver this bad news to someone. So I think people who are good at this or someone who has to go into a trauma bay in the ER and assess a serious injury with like
Time sensitivity, right? this person could die if I don't make this a quick decision about this and get them to the OR or whatever. people have learned to orient themselves in a way that they can,
Just bringing yourself back to this space where it's like, I am gonna be grounded for this person. And then like taking it from there. Because I also think that as a practitioner, if you simply went in with no agenda, like you mentioned earlier, and just listened, how would the conversation go? it's kind of an exciting question. Yeah. I mean, you know, there
And and the other part of that is as a practitioner, understanding when you do need to to direct the traffic, so to speak. Sure. When you do need to give this person a container for what's happening, when you do need to titrate the process for the for the client or the patient. and so I'm not suggesting, you know, you just walk in and
And the client has free reign for an hour and talks with no, I'm that's not what I'm saying, but I think sometimes we don't give the other person the opportunity. And we we can also model there are times when the client or the patient is uncomfortable with silence. We can model that for them. Sure. Because sometimes it is just s silence in the room and and it feels like
30 seconds of silence can feel like ten minutes. yeah. But it's really not that long. Mm-hmm. We had a joke with my dad, isn't that if there we didn't know what to say to each other or he didn't know what to ask, he would just ask about the weather. And I always thought that that was just his way of it not being silent, right? Like or not knowing what to say. It's just he had his standard thing that he brought up. Yeah.
So I think that some of this also comes back to knowing what you want, because a lot of the other book author contributors I've talked with about how people are just in this sympathetic state, running through life, you know, burning the candle, not always maybe taking the best care of themselves. And they just don't even know what they want. They think that they have to, you know.
Have a certain career path or have a certain life path or whatever the case may be. And so you have a wonderful free workbook on your website called the Ultimate Soul Design Workbook. And literally, this I think could be a very great first step for a patient on a personal level or a practitioner potentially what do you want as a practitioner? If I'm a therapist.
What do I want my clients to experience? What kind of support do I want to give them? What kind of outcomes do I want to see? this is the starting point for everything. What do you want? Yeah. And really the workbook is is just one slice of becoming, in my opinion, contemplative and starting to embrace some sort of daily practice.
I call it my spiritual daily practice, which, everybody's different. And there are many tools out there for that. For me, it's it's writing, it's aromatherapy, it's contemplation. for others it may be meditation or prayer, whatever that is for you. But also putting that into practice every day means that those moments when you are the doctor or the nurse that has to give bad news, or you are the clinician that's dealing with a
a client who's has deep childhood trauma, doing your own daily practices helps in the moments that happen during the day. Right. Right. Because we're we're setting our own intention every day. So this workbook is just one little slice of of that. You know, so if you do the workbook and go, okay, that was kind of that was kind of fun. Well, you know,
You can ask Google, give me a journal prompt for the day and they'll and you'll get one. Yeah. write for five minutes a day, read for ten minutes a day, something that's of value to you. not Google Scholar. Right. Because you're nourishing that part of yourself. And I think when we do that, we also
Have a greater ability to care for others. I had a pathologist or maybe it was a radiologist one time say to me, but I don't like have interaction with patients. I'm like, well, that's fine, but you still interact with your coworkers and your family, and right? So like everybody has personal interactions, and there's a lot of research on.
Community and personal interactions is one of the most important things that we can do for ourselves. And before that comes taking care of ourselves. And so I just thought it was a great way to just start because, like you said, it can be very simple. It doesn't have to be a one hour morning practice of journaling. baby always baby steps. Baby steps are the best way to start and build on that. And then listen to yourself.
And how does that improve your daily life personally, professionally? Well, and I think I'll borrow from the example the radiologist example. Mm-hmm. I would be willing to bet that when that radiologist sees a s a film, pictures that reveal
not necessarily a good outcome. Yeah. They may not be communicating that to the client or the patient, but they have to communicate about it somehow, either with another medical professional or either in a written report, right? Yeah. We are not robots. So there are feelings behind that. Absolutely. And is that radiologist dealing with that aspect of the work? Right.
Yeah, because I've read reports that say likely lung cancer, you know, period, or something like that. And then I've read reports that say concerning mass in upper right quadrant size, this oncologist needs to follow up with patient ASAP or, you know, whatever. It still comes across as it's just different than like this is bad, you know.
It it does show that humanness to it. I think that this work that you're doing is so important, Deanna. And this is really the missing piece. Like, if you know, in the age of technology, I actually love technology and use it for specific things, but I also feel like the human connection is a really important part of day-to-day life, also. And so
You do have to think through how do you use those different things in your life, right? And I just think that as we are having more technology, AI in particular, that's supporting us, we need to lean into the connection a little bit more. So this is really what people need is like learning how to have these intrinsic qualities that even if it was just listening, that you're improving.
Right. Right. Or just sitting in silence. if it was just that, that would make a profound difference on the outcomes of people's health. Because the reality is that if someone goes into a session and they don't feel he heard, they don't ever get asked a question, when they leave there, they are in a stressed state and their nervous system not in a good place. Right. Right. Right. And I know you speak to that, to the
the nervous system dysregulated nervous system and it's true. And a lot of medical patients are already dysregulated, right? Even if it's just because they're nervous about or worried about what's wrong. Right. And they're going for an answer and they may or may not get it. yeah, all of that is just stress inducing. So what can we as practitioners, you know, to me, just being present
fully present can calm somebody's nervous system. Absolutely. Yeah. I had a great my husband saw a clinician recently. It was for a serious procedure. And we went in, he was on time, he was super personable, like a little chit chat in the beginning, you know, asked some questions in the beginning, explained like what the procedure would be, listened. I mean, he had all these qualities down
I feel like as well as he could for what he did. And we left and I was like, wow, that took 15 minutes. It's not that this has to take an exorbitant amount of time. It and we were like in a good mood. There was no like knots in the stomach or anything, even though we still have to do the procedure. I say we, but he has to do the procedure, Like that isn't even happened yet.
But normally when you leave that first clinic situation, it just kind of gets you all stressed and tense to begin with. And then you later have to do the procedure. And this was like the exact opposite. just the great, I just can't say enough great things about this doctor. And I was just so impressed by that. And this is why these things are so important. I mean, you mentioned it for therapists, like therapists are humans too, Right. And I
I I don't want to make a blanket statement, but a lot of times when practitioners are not able to do this, or they have done it in the past to some extent, and then they get to a place in their career where they can't any longer, it's called burnout. I was just gonna ask you that. my gosh. So there was a time in my career where I did a lot of
Child protective services, interventions. I did forensic evaluations for the court. You know, I was seeing the worst of the worst, seeing children abused children, evaluating abused children all the time. Wow. And at some point I remember I went into the local county office and I asked I asked about a situation.
And the case worker said, which one? We have two like that.
And I it was like we were talking about, what kind of laundry detergent do you use? Like it it was such a a and neither one of us meant it in that way. Right. But it was the example of all the emotion is gone because we're just we're just putting one foot in front of the other trying to put out all these fires. And I really protect yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And I realized while there were parts of the work I really
liked and I was good at it, it was time for me to change tracks. And I would say that to any practitioner who's I don't care medical doctor, nurse, therapist, coach, aromatherapist, whatever you are, if you're finding that you you want to connect but you can't, you need a break or you need a change.
That is a real I'm so glad you brought that up because I think during COVID we saw some extreme examples, With suicide. And I know that that happens all the time, but it just reminds me of that. It was a big breaking point for the medical system. a lot of stressful things happening. And it's just heartbreaking to think that a person
Who is trying to take care of others is suffering so much. And so I love that you brought this up because it is not something that's often talked about. And it's something that we do need to talk about. So the the point is like taking a break can be like stepping back. And I've taken a couple of breaks in my oncology career. I actually still have my nursing license because I will not shut the door completely. I would go back and take care of cancer patients tomorrow.
If I wanted to or needed to. And I just enjoyed that part of my life so much. It is really challenging in a lot of ways, but it was also really just a big part of me, who I was. but the break part is really important. And I think this also goes back to the nourishing and taking care of yourself. I think when people take care of others in this way, or like what you were describing.
You need to double down on taking even more care of yourself. Would you agree? Yes, absolutely. I I'm a firm believer in in in that people can only do this first responder frontline work for so long. I don't think as humans we were we're built to be able to endure year upon year, day after day, of that kind of intensity.
And the thing that would trip me up about it is, well, I was really good at what I was doing. Hmm. Okay. So I've learned to pass the baton. It was my time to change it up, to do something else, because at some point you end up not doing yourself or the other person a favor. Right.
But what a wonderful gift you have now is you can teach others and mentor others, So that's the cyclical fashion of this is like you had those rules and that was really important and you were good at what you did, but now you can be really good at what you do, helping others do what they do best. Right. Which is why I said in the beginning, I'm not the same person I was when I started out in school to become a therapist 30 plus years ago.
Right. I'm I've evolved, I've changed, I've I've gone in different directions. I've I think that's I look at my timeline and go, this probably makes no sense to anybody. But then when I look at the fluidity of my life, okay, I see how I went from here to here to here, like puddle jumping. so yeah, I I I think the people that
stay in one career doing one task, and this isn't just practitioners, any of us, one task over and over and over and over and over again, really need to, as you say, double down and and figure out how to get those breaks, whether it's a daily break, take a vacation, change careers for a while, go to another work in a different department. And I also realize that some of us just have to work to make a living to keep the lights on.
And so that's also part of the struggle for a lot of people is just enduring.
there's another another little clue question you can ask yourself if you're what
wondering, am I is this burnout? or is it just maybe I'm not matching up with my soul's purpose? Like any of those questions. Just say to yourself.
Is this the way I want to feel? Is this how I want to feel? As you think about doing the the tasks of your job?
And I asked myself that question profoundly one day as I was doing a workshop in Atlanta with a hundred people in the room. And it was on a topic that I was good at teaching, but it I wasn't real excited and
I asked myself in the middle of this workshop, is this how I want to feel? And the resounding answer was in my head was no. And when I got in the car that day, the contract that I was under with the university had been severed. So there's also something about being intentional and calling in what's next for you without the fear. Like just admit if this is not your your thing.
Maybe it was and that now it's not anymore. That's okay. Right. And so, the universe took care of that and I moved on to the next thing and it was as it should be. Right. I think I definitely know in my earlier life, like my twenties, I really wanted to orchestrate and plan things out. And that was kind of a control mechanism. And I realized that now. And when I kind of just stepped back and allowed things to happen.
as the opportunities came up and the things I was interested in and followed my those good feelings. it just took me all kinds of wonderful places. So I love that you brought that up. That's it is a really I think we it doesn't have to be a list of ten questions, right? It can simply be the one question. But if we're not feeling how we want to feel in our career, I'm not talking about, you know, every minute of the day.
But overall, if we're not if we're not feeling it, how are we going to be able to sit with the client or the patient? Right. And really be present. Absolutely. I think it's an excellent first question and probably an excellent place for us to finish our conversation. We could probably talk for much longer, but again, as we discussed in this episode, it's not always about the quantity, It's the quality of time and your
attention and your relationship with that person. So I just can't thank you enough for being here today. Deanna's chapter is in the book The Integrated Bodies. So check it out. The link for the book will be in the show notes. And thank you again, Deanna. Thank you so much for having me. Anytime.
